Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

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Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

Postby claude.rivet » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:43 pm

Hello everyone,

I have been reading many post on these forums regarding encoding. DDS sequences and HAP seems to have the general favor in term of formats of choice.

However I am trying really hard to change our workflow to accomodate these codecs but it seems to me it is far more complicated than I would like, therefore I know I am doing something wrong :)

HAP:

-Downloaded the codec and installed it under windows
-Paid for QT Pro
-Tried to export 5 different movie and they all failed, the result is a white screen that last the duration of the movie.
-Tried HAPQ and it just closes quicktime with no message
-Tried to export from an image sequence (PNG) and it worked, am I ok to conclude it can only convert image sequences?
-The webpage specify the host software needs to support HAP for the offload to GPU to work, Coolux doesn't seem to support it so what's the point in converting to HAP?
-Concluded the fact I'm working with windows is the issue since HAP was created for a Mac app originaly.
-Openned a mac and installed HAP codecs
-Realized QT10 is well, not really useful so I downloaded QT7 and paid for pro
-Same results
-Therefore I cannot check the encoding time and evaluate if it fits our reality (most medias are given last minute, long encoding time are never a good thing for us).

-According to Patrick HAP is super easy to deal with and integrates awesomely in the workflow but since my experience is quite different I wanted to check with you guys where I go wrong and also verify what could be the ideal workflow. Also I need to know if it even works in offloading to GPU considering there is no native support in Pandora's Box.

DDS:

-Personnal remark: it is a convoluted method of encoding, rather than exporting an image sequence you need to export a qt movie with the Coolux codec as video codec and in the option specify a folder where the frames will be and then save the movie. The end result for me is a reference movie, an HST file and not a single frame, I have a hard time figuring how I will integrate this in our workflow with freelance editors and motion designers...

-So DDS trough quicktime doesn't lead to expected result on my machine but on Pandora's Box manager it works (I have not figured out why yet, maybe windows7 rather than 8 is the issue?). However the export time is very very long, 30sec video took 5 hours to export. It seems wrong and again I probably am not starting from an ideal file (on the other hand I cannot completely control how the clients will deliver the media, I can tell them how but if they choose otherwise I have to deal with it. Before I would not bother and use the included encoder to re-encode everything, with DDS I can't) so I could use a few pointers here also.
-If starting from an image sequence the image converter can export DDS files but again, it is very long.
-So the only valid workflow I found is to make an ffmpeg script that convert a movie to image sequence and bind it to my right click menu in Windows, use that sequence in the image converter and output to DDS, as you can guess this is tedious, convoluted and very very long, also it takes pretty much terrabytes of data for otherwise small videos making last minute edits and transfers impossible or rather, rarely feasible. That's how I know I am not working well :D there is a better way I am sure but I cannot find it, I could really use your help.

I will echo the other statements that native support for HAP would be great and that DDS is long to export, other than that I could really use your help to set up a valid workflow.

WHY? DDS are awesome, so clean, so fluid, very high quality and really nice to work with, I was able to play 4 concurent 4K files with no stutter whereas I can only play 2x 4k files in mxl before the system start showing some issues (stuttering, lag...). HAP seems really nice but I still haven't figured how to output a single working files so I won't install the codec in our server until I have a working HAP workflow.

SO, if anyone could help me set up a working workflow for DDS and/or HAP I would be happy. I surely am not the only one experiencing these issues so I guess the thread will be useful to a few other as well.

thanks much for a great product
regards
claude.rivet
 
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Re: Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

Postby florian » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:12 pm

Hi,

you really should not use Hap codec files with Pandora's Box. The #1 reason for this is that it is *not supported*. This means that any cool benefits you get from using it are happy accidents, and any problems you have with it are your own to deal with. The #2 reason is, as you pointed out, that native support for it doesn't exist in coolux products, so, it's not worth the time and effort to try to get it up an running.

Adding Hap support to coolux products is something that I, personally, am in favor of doing. If you think it's a a good idea, please add your voice to the group of people asking for it here:

viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3843&start=30

Keeping the discussion thread going on the subject is the best way to help inform the discussion the user base is having with the developers.

One of the benefits we would have, for using Hap is that there is an independent developer. Hap's support forum is here:
https://github.com/vidvox/hap-qt-codec/issues

I would encourage you to post your installation issues with Hap there, since the developer monitors that site. They are likely to recognize your symptoms and be able to offer a solution more quickly.

All that being said, what kind of video where you converting from? There is a simplicity in using Quicktime Player/Pro to import and export movies, but in general I find that you're better off using an application like Adobe's Media encoder (since it let's you manage profiles and batch convert). In addition, it has the ability to show you preview snapshots before you hit render, which can help spare you the irritation of having just spent time encoding a bunch of white frames.
-flo

"Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise."

Cato the Elder, Plutarch's Life of Cato
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Re: Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

Postby Daniel Kaminski » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:23 pm

Hi,

Content and Content Workflow is one of the big topics we are looking at right now.
We are aware that the workflow is not or others might say far from ideal right now.

We are taking all the user feedback in the forum very seriously and are working on improvements, which we will let you know as soon as they are available.
That will hopefully be sooner than later. Please be patient for a little while.

Content Workflow Options at this moment:
There are many different scenarios, I am trying to give you 2 examples.

Example a) You are the content creator and need to render it out for Pandoras Box use.

You have serveral options, depending on the project. Anything than can run on a single machine, a good workflow will be to render out a Coolux Quicktime Video. There you have the option to choose DDS, DDSA, YCoCg, BMP .....
* Inside the codec config window disable the "As Image Seq" checkbox.
* You can always select "Compress to SNP" - which stands for Snappy. Snappy is a realtime compression and in our case has in 99.999999% of all cases benefits without downsides.
* In the Format Window you can now choose which of the Imageformats you want as a ImageSequence inside that single Quicktime file.
You can read about the up and downsides of each format here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3730

What do you need to do to get it to work:
You need to install the codec on the render machine.
Right now this works without any Problems on 98% of all Windows Machine.

Example b) You get content delivered, but a lot of things on site are not clear

If you have the time and a big setup I would request PNG Images Sequences. They are the most flexible choice.
You can than reencode those PNG Seq into DDS, DDSA, MPEG or whatever using several different Tools.
Coolux gives you a fairly fast way to convert to DDS with the latest version of the Image converter, that can Multithread and Multibatch.
Adobe Media Encoder is also always a good option.
if you need to Splitt the Content the Image Splitter will help you to save a lot of time. Latest Version also does DDS.

PNG Sequences give you the most control over the Content and the Quality.
* You can easily check ever frame
* do not loose quality
* you can splitt them into segments
* reencode them using the ImageConverter

Downside is the amount of files and depending on the project time


Example c) You get content delivered from many different sources which you do not even have direct contact to

I would request Quicktime ProRes422 or PhotoJPEG files.
Those are very easy converted into MXL or into Coolux Codec using the Quicktime Converter.

The benefit is: The Content creator has nearly no chance to mess something up, since booth codecs have no options, a good quality to filesize ratio and are standart Codecs. (Prores encoding only on a Mac)

These are some of the workflow options for right now. I know there are many more and in the near future a couple more options on pandoras box side will become available and things will get easier and faster. Promised.


Daniel
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Re: Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

Postby aquapixs » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:32 pm

Hi Claude,

beside that Florian is correct with the fact that HAP is so far not natively embedded in PB you can use it on all Quicktime components as soon as you did install it on your system. So whenever you render thru Quicktime, which is done on most editing suites, you can choose HAP. Even the Coolux Quicktime converter will offer HAP if the codec is installed on your machine.

You are correct, DDS is very very very very slow. It takes ages to render into DDS. A suitable and faster workflow is to redner everything into png sequences. This way you have a very high quality on a fast render workflow.
To convert png to DDS you can use the Coolux image converter on a stron computer, ideally with SSD drives.
Make sure you use the "Multi Batch" mode combined with "Multi Thread". Make also sure to check the "exit after batch" checkbox. If you open the task manager while doing this you can check each kernel usage and change the batch and thread settings to get each kernel to about 90% to 95% percent. Try not to get a 100% flat line as this might overload your system and makes the process slower in total.
You should export to DDS snappy image sequence and take good care of your folder structure. But if you find the right setting and have a good hardware you end up with about 1 encoded frame per 2 seconds, depending on the image size and how many colours it has.
If you want to increase speed, use multiple computers at the same time to encode your content, but be careful no to get confused. On content intense shows I usually plan one person with a set of two or three machines just for content management and encoding. This gives the operator to work concentrated on the timeline.

Please also see another post I made regarding content formats and quality which fits into here as well:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3752

I personally do not like DDS as the image quality is quite poor. Looking at colours and colour bendings you will find much better options than DDS.
The whole discussion about codecs and formats did got quite intense lately so there is a lot to read about it here in the forum. I'd love to see an option very soon which would skip the whole converting nightmare and would allow you to tell the content creators a good working way how to render the content and then just drag this into the Box to run it. The only time this ever worked for me entirely on a show was when we did everything in HAP.

If you have any further questions please let me know.

Best wishes

Patrick
Patrick Verhey
Director Creative Media
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Re: Encoding, HAP and DDS, please help

Postby florian » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:33 pm

fyi: prores encoding is not only available on Macs. I have a PC that renders to ProRes4444 and 422 on a regular basis.
-flo

"Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise."

Cato the Elder, Plutarch's Life of Cato
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